The Madgician S01E07 | “The Power of Vulnerability in Leadership, Entrepreneurship, and Personal Branding”, with Deborah Choi, Managing Director and Co-Founder @Founderland

“To be a leader is to be vulnerable.To be a leader is to be curious.  To be a leader is to be kind. That's the burning fire inside of me. That's why I say certain things and I repeat certain things. And I make sure all the seats in the back can hear them.” - Deborah Choi

Words can’t describe how I feel about this week’s episode of The Madgician. @Deborah Choi, I commend you for your words of wisdom. There’s no doubt about it - vulnerability is strength, in life and business. As a woman founder, letting my guard down hasn’t always been easy. But I’m getting there. As I like to say, it’s a work in progress. 

Ep.07 of the MADgician - a podcast with women entrepreneurs, is available now on Spotify!

Deborah is a dynamic and innovative leader with over 15 years of experience in entrepreneurship, digital strategy, and business development. She's built a proven track record of scaling startups, driving digital transformation, and fostering diversity in tech. 

She's founded six ventures, raised VC funding, and joined the BusinessWeek ‘Top 25 under 25’ with her first startup and Business Insider's top 25 Zukunftsmacherinnen (Futuremaker) list for 2022. Deborah is a recipient of the Google for Startup's Black Founders Fund (2021) and a Top 100 Woman for Diversity in Germany (2023).

Deborah is also a sought-after public speaker and executive coach to founders and has been featured in TechCrunch, Sifted, EU Startups, and Business Insider.

Born in Nigeria and raised in the US, Deborah earned a BA from the University of Chicago and now resides between Berlin and Marrakech.

What you’ll learn by listening

• Entrepreneurship in Germany vs. the rest of Europe: localized growth vs. international expansion
• What’s the hardest challenge you’ve faced as a founder? What would you do differently today?
• The role of intuition in entrepreneurship: does it matter?
• From employee to business owner: taking the leap of faith
• The link between general marketing and personal branding
• Vulnerability in leadership: why it matters
• About Founderland: supporting women entrepreneurs of color across the continent
• Product vs. service companies: which is easier to start and grow?

Podcast transcription

Georgiana: This is Georgiana and you're listening to the MADgician Podcast where I regularly interview women entrepreneurs in tech, but not only. And today my very, very special guest is also a dear friend. Her name is Deborah Choi. Welcome, Deborah. Thank you so much for agreeing to talk to me.

Deborah Choi: Hi, Georgiana. Thanks for having me.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: I'm pretty sure most of the people who will be listening to this podcast already know you, but I need to introduce you because the reason why I've invited you on this podcast on this episode is that you are a role model to me and I'm sure to many, many other women as well. And the reason that is aside from you being a wonderful friend and a wonderful human being. Is that you have significant experience in leadership and entrepreneurship. 

And I'm going to say that Deb has over 15 years of experience in digital strategy, business development. You founded six ventures. You've raised VC funding multiple times. You've joined the business week top 25 under 25 with your first startup, which was in the U S. If I'm not mistaken, um, you've been a part of Miss Germany, you're one of the co-founders of Founderland.

You are doing so many things and you've been involved in so many inspirational initiatives, many of them, including women. And this is why I think you have a lot to share. So here we are today. 

Deborah Choi: Thank you so much for the introduction. And I also look forward.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: Deb is also a sought-after public speaker and a business coach. So whenever you need help or input in these areas, feel free to contact her. I've structured my interview in three parts. The first part covers entrepreneurship. You've spoken about this topic at many conferences, and I've listened to you describe it in some of your LinkedIn posts. I admire your ventures, courage, and willingness to take risks. I've always wondered, is this a Deb thing or an American thing?

Deborah Choi: Great question. So, you know, on this topic of risk, I think that, you know what, what I want to do or where I want to start rather. Is, um, at the beginning. Um, and I will say that my journey to who I am today, right. Who, you know, does seem, seem to come across as fearless. Uh, when you look at the number of ventures that I've built and the stance.

Deborah Choi: Uh, that I take very publicly about, um, you know, certain topics that, you know, at times and for some circles or maybe uncomfortable to talk about, um, that all comes across as a really kind of fearless and brave person. And you know, I, I say this, I, I didn't start there. Um, not at all. I, um, I was born in [00:04:00] Nigeria.

Deborah Choi: I really came from a humble background. My family immigrated. Uh, when I was very young to America and you know, the education, the lesson that I got at home as a young girl, um, was that, you know, playing it safe was the playbook to success and what did playing it safe mean, right? So growing up in an immigrant household that meant, you know, focusing on education, um, it meant, um, you know, going for certain degrees.

Deborah Choi: Um, you know, looking for stable work and stable career. And I definitely drank that Kool Aid. Um, for, you know, a good first half of my life, really. Um, I was able to go to a very good university in America. And I had the plan to go on to law school. Um, so I was, again, not at [00:05:00] all, Thinking about playing it in any kind of way in a, in a risky way, um, when it came to my career or, uh, you know, kind of the opportunities that could be opened up for myself and, you know, in many ways, I'm very grateful for, you know, what happened next and what happened next is that I stumbled into entrepreneurship in this environment, uh, at university.

Deborah Choi: Um, so, you know, during the day I'm in my coursework, uh, you know, really focused on my major, which was political science. Um, but everything outside of that, I was building my first startup with my first co founders and

Georgiana Ghiciuc: So young.

Deborah Choi: young and so ignorant really of the risk, right? So I was having fun. I was feeling supported.

Deborah Choi: I had professors who took an interest in what we were building. And from a kind of educational perspective, suggested different courses that, you know, I could take at the business school. So I could level up on accounting, on sales, on economics, on marketing. Um, I gladly took them on the side in addition to my, my degree.

Deborah Choi: So, you know, it was this environment in which I became an entrepreneur and I learned that entrepreneurship could be fun, um, and could be, um, an available path to myself. And, you know, not everyone gets supported like that when they become an entrepreneur. I do think that if more of us and especially more women, um, did get that support, we would see things very differently now.

Deborah Choi: Um, you know, we would see, uh, maybe more Deborah's, more paths like Deborah, um, where, you know, people are just feeling like if they leap, um, there's definitely going to be a couple of [00:07:00] hands to hold them, uh, along the way. And so, you know, my, my, my journey since then, of course. You know, six different companies had its fair share of ups and downs.

Deborah Choi: Um, a lot of crashes, but I do think that, you know, that very first experience that I felt so nurtured and supported, um, really was so eyeopening and expansive in how I even viewed the opportunity to, um, to build companies and to be an entrepreneur. Sure.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: And I think this is very eye opening when it comes to differences. In the approach on entrepreneurship between America and Europe. And, um, this happened what 14, 15 years ago when things were very different here in Europe, um, I think we're lucky today to witness some degree of change. But I think we're still far away from what you were, um, telling in your story, unfortunately. And that brings me to my second question. We met in Germany, you still reside in Germany. You actually, uh, share your time between Germany and Marrakesh. Have you noticed, and if you have noticed, what are the differences in entrepreneurship approaches between Germany? And the rest of Europe. I won't say the US.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: Let's just stick to the rest of Europe for now.

Deborah Choi: So, you know, I, I definitely come at this question in more than one way. Um,

Deborah Choi: On one end, I used to one of my former companies was a marketing agency. Uh, this is back when I was still living in New York City, and that agency's focus was working with high growth, scale ups and tech companies who are looking to expand to the U.

Deborah Choi: S. So I actually spent a lot of time in that chapter traveling to Europe, meeting with our clients on the ground. I'm spending a lot of time in Stockholm and London in [00:09:00] Madrid and, um, always scratching my head a bit about, well, what's going on in Germany? Um, you know, just not really seeing the same, um, kind of, uh, growth strategy, right, that we were seeing with our clients and other markets who were essentially, you know, showing that traction in their home, home market.

Whether that was the UK or the Nordics and then saying, okay, it's now time for us to go over to the U S market. Um, so, you know, I always had this kind of puzzle around, um, what is the German market and what is, you know, more broadly the dock market, there is something different about, um, how this region looks at growth and market expansion.

And now, you know, I live here and I've been living in Germany for, uh, eight years. In this time, I've now built more companies here, but I've also, um, especially when I first moved here, uh, did [00:10:00] work at a, uh, at a large, um, German scale up, um, uh, and that no longer unfortunately exists. But, you know, one thing I'll say about this is, you know, the German market, um, when it comes to market expansion specifically, Um, you know, definitely takes a different trajectory.

Deborah Choi: And I do think that, you know, we cannot kind of, um, minimize the topic of localization here and not just culturally too. So, you know, a typical German growth story is to start in, say Munich or Berlin, you know, kind of the, the main hubs, um, expand to the whole Germany. So that's already kind of thinking through how do I expand to kind of reach a total market of around 80 million people.

Deborah Choi: And then from there to expand to doc, yeah. So to go on to,

Deborah Choi: uh, Austria and Switzerland, Um, and, and over that, that process could be five years, you know, what I'm [00:11:00] just talking about and in that same timeframe, you might see, you know, a similar size startup in Stockholm, which is, um, you know, and Sweden, which is this much smaller, uh, market than Germany, um, you know, find that first traction in Stockholm and actually even before thinking about expanding to the full market go already to the U S.

Deborah Choi: Because, you know, about the investor market, the investor topic, um, that there is, of course, more money in the U. S. versus, say, on a, on a, on a total scale, right, versus, say, Sweden. But then also, you know, the language. Um, so often, um, you know, these young or tech startups are, um, you know, in, in that market starting off in English first.

Deborah Choi: So that switch over, um, you know, for their product, whether it's a B2C or B2B is just a little bit easier. Um, so I do think that, you know, there is this difference that [00:12:00] some people could say is slow, but that's that, that's a certain perspective of The end game, um, is the end game to expand to the U S or, or not.

Deborah Choi: Um, so, so this is something from kind of my experience kind of being in different, in these two different markets specifically, um, you know, growing businesses and supporting businesses with their growth in the U S versus, uh, you know, doing something quite similar here in Germany,

Georgiana Ghiciuc: You've, you've done so much as a founder, um, and you've mentioned ups and downs, right? We all experienced them. What was the hardest thing you've ever had to do as a founder? And looking back, what is the one thing that you would do differently today?

Deborah Choi: I would say the hardest. The hardest times, um, and I say times plural, um, you know, imagine this, [00:13:00] you're, you're, you're entrusted with the flashlight and you're meant guide, you know, a small team, um, you know, pick that number. What's, what's, what size small we're talking about, um, through a space and out, but your flashlight is broken.

So you have to improvise, you know, it's dark in there. Um, it's not a terrain that you're so familiar with and, you know, you have folks right behind you, um, you know, believing that you probably know a little bit more than them at least. about what it's going to take to get out. Um, and entrepreneurship is a lot like that. Um, you know, especially when things are challenging, um, you know, it's that desire at that point to have a magic ball to understand, you know, where are the cards going to fall. Um, not only for yourself to know, but to make sure that you can let, you know, all your, um, dependencies knows as well. [00:14:00] Right.

Deborah Choi: Whether we're talking about your team, your customers, your investors, uh, your advisors, and over time that list of people really grows. Um, so I think that, you know, the hardest part is how do you hold that? How do you hold that? Um, knowing that this is part of the experience. Um, leading often without knowing, leading without with a broken flag.

Deborah Choi: Um, how do you hold that with authenticity? Um, how do you lead with uncertainty? And, you know, over time, I think that ultimately you only learn how to do that by going through it by reflecting. Um, and then ultimately by, you know, choosing, um, certain things, right. By choosing, you know, dark hallway to stay calm, right?

 Using to think about, you know, from a, from a curious place, who else might [00:15:00] know more than me, um, about how to solve this. Um, you know, it's kind of letting your ego rest. Um, and, you know, just decide to lead from this place of, um, you know, open, open mindedness. And I think that, you know, that's really hard for anyone to do.

Deborah Choi: It's hard to do that. When we're even talking about self leadership, um, you know, leading your own self through a hard time. But, you know, I do think that, you know, me personally, this has really been always, um, kind of a transformative moment. Um, when things get hard, um, for myself to think through, how do I want to leave this one and how do I want to show up for myself and for those who are depending on me,

Georgiana Ghiciuc: Would you say intuition has helped during moments like these?

Deborah Choi: Intuition can help, um, definitely. It has helped me. Um, I think that also over time, um, you know, the receipts. [00:16:00] are also there, right? So I, and you know, every situation is different, but I can be reminded, right, that I have a certain value set that I hold on to even through a hard, a hard moment in the company or, uh, with the co founders or, or what, what, what have you.

I think, you know, that's really key. I think also, you know, Having people around you that, um, can hold you accountable when things are hard as a leader, uh, is also really helpful, really key. Um, that could be, and it's been for me, many different people. It's been, um, you know, my business coaches, it's been peers, uh, who are really also my mentors. Um, so, you know, it's really kind of just being open to those inputs. But also, you know, having that trust in your intuition for sure.[00:17:00] 

Georgiana Ghiciuc:  And I think with time, experience, couples with intuition, and then, yeah, like you said, you kind of learn a recipe or. Yeah, sort of know what works and what doesn't most of the time, right? We don't always, and you know, then I, um, I get this question a lot, especially from women asking, you know, I'm an employee, I've been an employee all my life, but I've been thinking of doing this thing.

I've been thinking of starting my own business, but the risk I'm supposed to take is huge. And I don't know whether I'll ever be ready to take that step. Giant leap of faith. What do you say to women like that? Because for sure you must talk to many, many of them.

Deborah Choi: Well, um, you know, it's actually become a lot easier to have that conversation over the last few years because, um, you know, unfortunately or not, reality has shown us that it's [00:18:00] inherently risky to be an adult. You know, it's inherently risky to be a woman in this world. 

Georgiana Ghiciuc: Right.

Deborah Choi: You know, we've seen over the last four years.

Deborah Choi: Major layoffs and they continue today. They've gotten quieter, but it's still very much happening. Um, simply put, you know, there is no safe career or job. It's not safer to be an employee versus an entrepreneur. We see that also with, you know, what's going on in the funding environment. Women are getting even less Um, then for funding, um, there's even less women who, when I, when you at least look at the European market, uh, it went from around 16 percent of entrepreneurs being women in Europe to now just under 14%.

Deborah Choi: Um, so, you know, it's hard either way. Yeah. That's one, that's one [00:19:00] point. Um, so then the question then is, you know, where do you find your stability? And, you know, I find a lot of insight from, you know, the world of invested investors and investment, you know, any, any investor will tell you that they think in portfolio.

Deborah Choi: And what does that mean? You know, it's not putting all your eggs into one stock. not, um, you know, only, uh, or, or investing into only one asset class, uh, diversification is safe. Um, so, you know, when I do talk with, uh, you know, this woman, um, that is, you know, in this example, you know, thinking about an idea and not quite sure if she has what it takes to get started, you know, I first start by saying, well, how diverse is it?

Deborah Choi: is your business portfolio. You know, only relying on this one job. Um, are you [00:20:00] also looking at other things? Um, because that's where you're going to have more stability over time. And entrepreneurship could be one piece in that puzzle, right? Um, I'm, I'm, I'm less, You know, convinced on everyone should be an entrepreneur.

Deborah Choi: Um, I don't think I ever was, but I do think that, you know, we all have creativity inside of ourselves. We are all fundamentally problem solvers. We have the elements, um, that could, you know, have us dive into entrepreneurship, but, you know, at the end of the day, it's really on an individual level kind of thinking through, Um, you know, your, your career strategy and the way in which you could think about that, uh, from a portfolio perspective.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: Like multiple revenue streams, for example, how can you support yourself? Should you start the business?

Georgiana Ghiciuc: Yeah,

Georgiana Ghiciuc: that's a, that's a more holistic [00:21:00] approach to it. And then I'm wondering, based on your own experience and on the experience of many women in Founderland, would you say there are areas of business in which it's easier to fund or found a venture than others?

Deborah Choi: that's a great question. And I think that, you know, what we're seeing in the last two years is a lot of change here. So, you know, often people look at, well, should I run a CERT, start a service? or product, right? So, you know, if someone is, um, you know, professionally a marketer and they've been working in a corporate environment for some time, they could, um, also be consultant, right?

Deborah Choi: So they could offer those services and that's a natural extension.

Deborah Choi: Um, but you know, I do think what's really interesting is the ways in which a I right is unlocking product development for a lot more people. Um, it's [00:22:00] still very much early days and you do have to kind of upscale a bit into understanding how to work with AI.

Deborah Choi: Um, you know, but the results are out there and it's really interesting stuff where people are, you know, building APIs or building, um, they're building websites, they're building, uh, platforms. Um, you know, without being technically, um, you know, there to build it, um, you know, using AI to kind of design what they have in mind.

Deborah Choi: So I do think that we're going to see over the next few years, a really like leveling out here where people can just simply say, well, what's my interest, um, and, and not really lead with limitation. Um, so it could be again that marketer thinking about, well, I could offer a service here, or I could automate a certain part of what I know is a pain point right in the marketing workflow, um, because I can use a I to help me build that.

Deborah Choi: Um, so

Deborah Choi: this [00:23:00] is really interesting space right now. Um, when it comes to this question.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: We'll be speaking a bit, um, more on the topic of product versus service. As you know, I also started with a service, um, business, a digital marketing agency in 2014, and now I'm going into shoe design and, um. e commerce and shoe commerce, and it's a totally different story. So I really would like us to dive maybe a little deeper into this topic. I would like us now to look at. Marketing and personal branding, because we're all on LinkedIn or we should be at least I think, um, on LinkedIn in one way or

Georgiana Ghiciuc: another, or, um, you know, in one degree or another, and you are definitely a brand in yourself. And I love that about you. I love the posts that you write on LinkedIn.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: I find them truly inspirational. I think your, your speeches are amazing. Whenever you go to conferences and, and, and hold these speeches. [00:24:00] Um, I'm wondering if you've developed this side of yourself specifically to gain traction in your business or vice versa, it has come as a natural consequence of the success in your ventures.

Deborah Choi: that's such a good question. So, um, Let me think about where I want to begin on it. I think that, you know, of course, um, you know, the topic of personal brand is so top of mind right now. I think that you're like, we are all just seeing, um, people's representations around us, you know, not just on LinkedIn, but literally everywhere.

Deborah Choi: Everyone's a brand and most people don't feel that great about that. Right. Um, so I think that we have this kind of interesting contrast. with this topic where people feel like it's something they should do like floss flossing, but they're reluctant to, right. Um, and reluctant for a lot of really valid [00:25:00] reasons.

Deborah Choi: Um, as a business coach, I do work with some clients specifically on this topic. Um, so I, I've heard a lot of the fears. About, you know, privacy and, um, you know, well, where, where do I start? Like, do I even have the capacity to be posting every day on, uh,

Georgiana Ghiciuc: Or should I even be

Georgiana Ghiciuc: posting every day? I love 

Deborah Choi: start with. A really clear context on why, you know, I do think that when we lack a clear why for anything that we do, if we haven't bought into that, why or agreed with it, it's not going to go anywhere.

Deborah Choi: Yeah. Um, so, you know, personal branding, here's my take. My take is, you know, a great personal brand is really built to answer a question. So we all can think first before we even think about which platform or what the frequency is. [00:26:00] Um, what is the question that I want my brand to answer? And, you know, often the journey to find the answer to that is a journey through your values, your mission.

Deborah Choi: Um, your your core qualities. It's actually really feel good journey. Um, at the end,

Georgiana Ghiciuc: A very difficult one,

Deborah Choi: it does take time. It's definitely something that you want to kind of sit with. Um, and, you know, kind of also get folks who who really see you, um, to also weigh in and maybe even challenge, right? Some of the things that are coming up for you.

Deborah Choi: Um, but once you do get to That thing, right? That question. Um, it becomes a lot more fun to embrace the idea of personal branding. It becomes a lot more mission driven to as well because it's no longer a [00:27:00] conversation around, um, spamming. advertising, right? Kind of these icky, not nice feeling

Deborah Choi: ideas that people have around putting themselves out there consistently.

Deborah Choi: Um, but instead it goes into this other space that is tapping into a person's creativity. Um, tapping into a person's earnest joy around a topic and the great brands that we all like to follow are doing that. Um, you know, there is a sense of authenticity, whatever the brand may be, whatever the question might be, right, that that person is honed into.

Deborah Choi: Um, you know, that, that connection is what makes a brand. That whole, um, brand universal feeling, right. And inspiring. Um, so, you know, that's what I really think is key. Uh, when we think about [00:28:00] personal brand. In general, um, for myself, right? Cause you maybe are wondering, well, what is my question? Um, you know, one thing for me that feels really clear is that I want to speak to the version of me that was five, that was 10, that was 15.

Deborah Choi: That was even 20

Georgiana Ghiciuc: hmm. 

Deborah Choi: who really didn't see herself. Uh, when,

Georgiana Ghiciuc: Oh my god, you're gonna make me cry, honestly. This is very, very intense,

Deborah Choi: yeah, who just didn't. And not, not, not in a terrible way,

Deborah Choi: To be a leader is to be vulnerable. To be a leader is to be curious.  To be a leader is to be kind. 

Georgiana Ghiciuc: hmm.

Deborah Choi: you can be a woman. You can be a person of color.

Deborah Choi: You can be a mother. Um, you know, I want to speak to her sorry to make you cry. I don't mean to.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: it's,

Georgiana Ghiciuc: it's good crying, it's good crying,

Deborah Choi: good tears. Good. Um, but for me, that's the burning fire inside of me, right? That's, that's why I say certain things and I repeat certain things. And I make sure, you know, all the seats in the back can hear them.

Deborah Choi: Um, you know, because this is the question that I want to answer with my personal brand. Um, and, and so this is, this is I think what, what, where we want to get to when we talk about personal brand. I don't think that, you know, we, we as the universal we are doing enough to lead us, ourselves there. Um, right now it does [00:30:00] often feel very superficial, um, and very competitive, and very intimidating as well.

Deborah Choi: Yeah.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: oh yes It does feel like a competition many times. Has it taken you a long time to figure out this? Why

Deborah Choi: Yes. Yes. Short answer. Yes. Longer answer. I, I definitely would. I go immediately to, um, my former business coach who is now also, I'm so blessed a friend of mine. We've kind of evolved our relationship over the years and we went through a journey together over two years where, um, Um, it was really this work of just trying to put all the pieces together.

Deborah Choi: You know, I think as women, especially, I just, I just joined the fourth floor, as they say, and turned 40 earlier this year. But especially women in our [00:31:00] 30s, you know, we are often going through so much, right? Whether that's kind of like really just leveling up in our career, um, starting to create our families.

Deborah Choi: Um, you know, supporting our parents, right? We're, we're often looked at as the squeeze generation where we're caregiving on both sides. Um, there's so much going on and, you know, the opportunity to just kind of take a step back and look, what have I been doing over the last few years? What are the trends?

Deborah Choi: What are the links? Uh, what are those aha moments where I see that I might be running into, uh, certain cycles that are either. Great for me. Right. Let me keep doing them or harmful and let me be mindful of them. And, you know, it's a privilege really to sit with someone who can guide you through that exercise to see that.

Deborah Choi: Um, and so when I think about, you know, my journey to that clarity on [00:32:00] what drives me, what is my mission statement? What is, you know, the question that my, my brand answers. Um, I definitely think back to those, those really, you know, intense. Um, you know, behind the scenes, you know, moments of doing that work with support to just really understand what my journey has been.

Deborah Choi: Um, and where I want to drive it next.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: this is very nicely put. Um, it partially answers my next question. What should I do today or what should I start doing today in order to grow my personal brand? But still, I'd like to ask you if there's one little thing. That I can do tomorrow or, you know, this afternoon, whether it be, I don't know, posting something on LinkedIn or just, um, analyzing my career trajectory so far. What is the one little thing that I can do that's going to be helpful in the direction of growing my own personal [00:33:00] brand? Yes.

Deborah Choi: I do think that it's this inventory work. Your brand is full stop is already there. What we're trying to do is reconnect with it. Yeah. We're trying to reconnect with that version of ourselves that, um, is inside of us is very clear, um, is very, uh, value driven and is often because of just the nature of Life behind all of the responsibilities.

Deborah Choi: Um, you know, all of the stress of, you know, being an adult, being a caregiver, being a mother, being a woman, being an entrepreneur. goes on here. Um, taking an inventory. What do I mean by that? Yeah. So what I mean is really, you know, the short is journaling and we all can feel a certain way about journaling, [00:34:00] but it is free writing this free reign.

Deborah Choi: Give yourself, if you only have 10 minutes, make it 10 minutes. where you just write down who you are and you write until the time is up. And it's fascinating what comes out. It's really fascinating. At first we go with the stuff that's in our CV, right? But over time, then you start to find that you are also someone who loves to cook.

Deborah Choi: Um, you're someone who likes languages. You're someone who likes board games. You start to build this whole composite of who you are. And the next step after that, if I could make two steps, um, really start to analyze that and say, well, you know, if I'm looking at this list, That is all the things that I think I am.

Deborah Choi: Um, what in it can I kick up and start to share about in a really authentic way, um, to touch a certain person? Yeah. What does [00:35:00] that person look like, or who is that person? Is it a former self? Is it a future self? Um, often not to say that we're all just living in our own realities, but kind of it's one or the other.

Deborah Choi: Um, so, you know, just thinking through that, you start to build out the strategy, um, that is, you know, really meaningful. just about that voice, that story that only you can, you can tell. And, you know, when you have that often for me, I see a sense of calm because it's no longer about competing. Um, you know, to kind of, Oh, this thing happened in the world.

Deborah Choi: I need to quickly write about it too. It's not about that. Um, it's only about kind of your very unique. Um, take on what's happening in the world, what's happening in yourself, what's happening in your, um, that can take its time to come out. And when it does come out, it's going [00:36:00] to be good because of its source.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: There's a lot here on storytelling and authenticity, and I'm gonna, I'm going to make this small analogy, which I cannot help making thinking back to 2012, 2011 and content marketing as it was starting out. And you know it so well, obviously what we were advised. Or how we were advised to be writing, be authentic, try to create a story, try to see where the vision is. And it's, it's unbelievable that in, in the end you kind of do that about yourself in a way.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: it's funny also at the same time, because at that time I was thinking, yeah, sure, but how? It only, it only took me 14 years or 15 years.

Deborah Choi: I'd say that's a fact.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: Not that, not that long. Um, you know, we could be speaking for hours. I mean, I could listen to you talk [00:37:00] for hours on end. Um, but I think I want us to dive. Uh, faster into the topic of your experience with Founderland and your experience coaching Women Founder. And I'm wondering if in these years while speaking to these women and witnessing them grow in Founderland and outside of Founderland, maybe have you seen replicated some things? Have you seen some recipes if I can call them this way? Maybe it's not nicely put, models if I can say, or things that We're replicated and founders in the business model of the businesses that succeeded,

Deborah Choi: Oh, interesting. Yeah. Great. Great. So, um, just to quickly kind of contextualize Founderland. So, uh, Founderland is an organization that I co founded with two other co founders, um, four years ago. So it's an [00:38:00] organization that is based in Europe and has been built to support women of color entrepreneurs across the continent.

Deborah Choi: Um, we do that in a few different ways, but at the core, our mission is really to Increase the number of women of color who are entrepreneurs, uh, in Europe. Increase the percentage of funding that goes to this group. So overall, those numbers are really dismal. Um, it's less than 3 percent of venture funding that goes to women led teams.

Deborah Choi: And then when you start to add, um, identity markers such as race or ethnicity, that percentage drops even further to less than 0. 5%. Um, so, you know, these are lofty goals and over the last four years, we've been able to do a lot of great things towards these goals. Um, we've been able to take on incredible partners and funders, uh, such as google.

Deborah Choi: org, who was, who wrote our [00:39:00] first, the first check into our organization, um, three years ago. Um, RGA has been a partner since day one. Um, Um, creating our whole kind of brand architecture, uh, for, for the organization and many more. And, you know, we've also been able to launch an accelerator program called Compass, which is, um, which completed this year, it's third cohort.

Deborah Choi: Um, our first two cohorts have already gone on to raise over 10 million euros and funding. So really just turning those, um, dismal metrics on their heads. So I could talk a lot about founder land, but just as context, this is what it is today. A thriving organization that is supporting well over 600 women of color entrepreneurs who are building in over 26 European markets.

Deborah Choi: In so that's that's founder land today. Now, the thing about building [00:40:00] anything, um, is to not think too far ahead. I think that if I knowing everything that I know now about the organization that I run. Um, thought, well, okay, I need to have an operating budget of this amount. I need to have a team of the size.

Deborah Choi: Um, I'll definitely need X, Y, and Z number of sponsors. And, you know, I would have scared myself out of starting. Um, you know, when founder land began, it was just. Really this pain. I was like, Oh, this feels so uncomfortable. Um, to be a woman of color founder in Europe, there's no community, um, that I can just join where I could, you know, talk about my journey.

Deborah Choi: And, you know, the other person really gets it because they're going through something so similar. Um, and so, you know, at the time it was like, well, how can we dispel that? Get this community together. We are here. Um, [00:41:00] but you know, it's hard to find each other. This was kind of that early ideation in late 2019 going into 2020.

Deborah Choi: Um, and so, you know, it was simply starting with how do we create a community? And it's grown four years later to an organization, um, to, you know, to annual programming and more. Um, so, you know, starting with the very first step is the key to anything. The key to starting anything. Now, what, what is, what has been interesting and really fascinating, um, as I've been watching Founderland grow, is especially with a lot of the founders who joined us from the early years, the first second years, um, you know, is to see kind of the evolution of their journeys as founders and in their businesses too.

Deborah Choi: Um, and it's really been everything. Um, you know, we've seen which parallels the wider [00:42:00] ecosystem. Um, we've seen ups and downs. We've seen founders become, uh, on, uh, employees. Uh, we've seen founders become, uh, VCs as well. Um, we've seen founders in our community raise millions. We've seen, um, unfortunately a lot of founders have to also close down, um, their businesses in the last four years.

Deborah Choi: In the last. the most recent two years. What's been so exciting to see is the rise of a I powered companies in wide host of industries that are reflected in our founder community. Um, essentially, the wider trends that we're seeing across the space, right? Um, are what you're seeing a woman of color also building, you know, we're, we're often also building towards opportunity, um, competitive advantage, um, timing and so [00:43:00] forth, but you're just seeing that we're just seeing that, you know, not only women of color, but also women led companies are just receiving this a smaller, much smaller piece of the funding pie to do so.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: which is a shame,

Georgiana Ghiciuc: I think. Um, and getting back to what you were mentioning previously, product versus service company, which one of them would you say is easier to start and which one of them is easier to grow? What has the case been for you, you know, to contextualize even

Georgiana Ghiciuc: more? 

Deborah Choi: Hmm. So I've built both service companies and product companies. And, um, I'm now just kind of reflecting on my journey. Um, I've enjoyed both personally. I'm just speaking for myself. They're, they're different muscles. Um, [00:44:00] I do think that if you're going to run a service business, you have to like to some extent people because often service businesses are people businesses.

Deborah Choi: Um,

Georgiana Ghiciuc: Yeah, yeah,

Deborah Choi: to have some level of comfort with sales as well, um, tied to, you know, being in a people business. Um, and also, you know, uh, an open mindedness to relationship building, um, as well. So that's at a high level across so many different kinds of service businesses, of course. Um, what I find kind of interesting about the product side is sometimes you can, if you're not such a people person, um, you know, you can really kind of just be in the background, um, and let your product.

Deborah Choi: Um, you know, really kind of step forward and, uh,

Deborah Choi: you know, that for a lot of different reasons, this can be really attractive, right? Um, especially if, um, especially if we [00:45:00] are a woman, um, you know, who is growing a company at or wants to grow a company. But, you know, we, we just face so many different challenges in that process, right?

Deborah Choi: Like when it comes to microaggressions, when it comes to all sorts of things, uh, with trying to sell into different kinds of organizations and, you know, just not getting the respect that our male counterparts might write in the same process. So sometimes there is that comfort that your product can first Show its face.

Deborah Choi: Um, and then then yours as a secondary. Um, and that's just kind of thinking through some of those, those, those challenges from a gender perspective. But, um, I do think that it's really also really key for someone to think about again about that portfolio career. Where you want your idea or this ambition to start a business to go.[00:46:00] 

Deborah Choi: Um, you know, I don't really like how people talk about either a venture business or a lifestyle business. It, it makes it seem like a company that is designed to, um, create generational wealth for you and your family is something that's Not that cool or something. And I fully disagree. I fully disagree. I do think that we need to reframe that completely.

Deborah Choi: So, you know, just even thinking through, do you want to, you know, aim for, uh, a business that maybe will need external capital to grow because it's growing really fast? Um, or do you maybe see that your, um, your, your, your appetite for that is different. Um, and this can also kind of dictate, okay, maybe you might.

Deborah Choi: Um, you know, lean more towards product. If you want to grow that can scale really fast, that can maybe become, um, accessible to [00:47:00] users to customers all over the world, um, in a, in a short amount of time. Not everyone wants to do that, right? Um, but if you do, product would make more sense for that. Um, so, so those are some of the things that, you know, I do think are often very personal questions.

Deborah Choi: Many, many companies are. Are really built by the founder, uh, or the founders. So, you know, just really owning that and just making those decisions, uh, that do work for you is going to attract, um, you know, the right, um, um, kind of constellation around whatever you're going to build, whether that, whether we're talking about, you know, the potential, uh, partners, customers, team members, and so forth.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: I think there's also a question of whether the product you go into, and I speak here for myself, is in the same industry as the [00:48:00] service business you've had, because then there's additional challenges

Georgiana Ghiciuc: to that. But, um, yeah, it's a, it's a personal choice in the end, I think, and it all boils down to the why. So I guess, yes, I'm, uh, I'm going to be reflecting a lot on this after we, we end our discussion. Um, I'm trying to also be mindful of the time and to, um, kind of conclude this very inspirational talk in a lighter way, if I can say so. And I'd like to ask you on that topic, what do you do when you feel stuck in business, in life? And whatever, when you're in the downs from the ups and downs.

Deborah Choi: So, um, I think, I don't know if this is a TV show that we had, that we had in Europe, but definitely growing up in the States, um, there's this TV show called who wants to be a millionaire. Um, [00:49:00] and one, the reason that I bring it up is that the contestants, they had this option. Um, that they would be really selective when they used it to phone a friend.

Deborah Choi: And that would be one way that they could get a question answered. Right. Um, and they, they can't just be like on that stage on TV thinking like, which friend they have to already know, like, these are like, My four friends who are encyclopedias. Um, so these are the ones I'm going to call when whatever kind of question comes up.

Deborah Choi: So, you know, when I feel stuck, I definitely have my phone of friends. I have this short list, um, that I reach out to for different reasons. Some are encyclopedias, um, but others are just really like, they will tell me the truth. And I, that's what I need. Um, in that moment, um, they'll tell me the truth about the situation or the truth about myself as they see it.

Deborah Choi: Um, and so, you know, [00:50:00] that's something that we can cultivate. Anyone can cultivate outside of those emergency times. Um, you know, it's something as simple as even saying to someone, um, you know, I would like to, you know, sometimes tap your, your, your, your wisdom. Um, you know, the way that you know me, the way you see things, um, when I'm feeling stuck, is that okay?

Deborah Choi: And I, I do think that that is often very well received. Um, another thing that I do, and I've started to do more recent, um, this is more recent for me over the last, I'd say two, three years is I do a lot of meditation. Um, I, I use guided meditation. Um, sometimes it's more breath work. Um, when I'm feeling stuck, um, because I do think that often when we're feeling stuck, it's all here.

Deborah Choi: We're stuck here. The rest of our body is waiting for our brains to stop being stuck. [00:51:00] Um, and you know, we feel that often in our bodies. You know, when I'm stuck, um, you know, my brain is in a loop, right? I'm no longer in the present. I'm somewhere in between the past and the future, just kind of blipping between the two, right?

Deborah Choi: So I'm, I'm not even in reality. Um, but my heart is beating my, you know, my, my body is reacting and is ready.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: Scenarios are being built.

Deborah Choi: Exactly. So, you know, I do think that, you know, that, that, that can be so key to just kind of break that pattern. And meditation is one way, um, you know, taking a break, getting physical, maybe taking a walk for a few minutes.

Deborah Choi: can get ourselves out of those loops. Um, that do keep us stuck. Um, because I do think that, you know, again, like we do have the answers in us. Um, we do ultimately know what's right for us. [00:52:00] Um, in any given scenario where we need to choose between one hard looking choice and another, um, you know, the right one is also in front of us.

Deborah Choi: Um, but it can be scary to, to make that decision because the way that we like to think about, well, what could happen or what has happened. Yeah. Um, but I do think that these things are incredibly helpful and they have been for me.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: Okay. And if you were to quote an inspirational author that you sometimes go to,

Deborah Choi: Um, so I was thinking about, um, a couple of books that I really, really like. And, um, one, there's a few, there's too many. First of all, there's too many. Um, but one that does come to mind because I do feel like I've been kind of going back and thumbing through, um, just more, more recently, um, is, um, the four agreements.[00:53:00] 

Deborah Choi: Um, so, you know, this book is a very short book, um, ultimately, and you know, it's all about, um, you know, just for simple, simple enough, uh, or simply written agreements that, you know, we can hold on to as people, um, to, to lead the you know, kind of a better life. Um, you know, for example, one of the agreements, I'm not going to give away all four, but one of the agreements is to not take anything personally.

Deborah Choi: And so much insight in that, right? Like how often do we get stuck or do we kind of have a difficult moment because we are personalizing, um, a situation. So to kind of depersonalize it is to also take a step, um, is to also even make the space for empathy about the other side. So, you know, that [00:54:00] book for me is, is definitely, um, definitely a resource.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: It does sound interesting. Yeah, there's a lot of talk there probably about ego and letting go of it. Yeah, will look it up. Thank you so much, Deb. This has been both fun, inspirational, entertaining at the same time. It's always a pleasure to see you and to talk to you. Thank you and all the best.

Deborah Choi: I'm so happy that I got to be on your podcast today. So thank you again. And I'm happy to be connected, uh, with anyone who's listening and feels so inspired to afterwards as well.

Georgiana Ghiciuc: Perfect. Thank you, Deb.